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ANNOUNCER: The following is a
lecture given by His Divine Grace
A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
Prabhupāda, recorded on
October 2, 1968 in Seattle.


(sings) Govindam adi-purusam
tam aham bhajami (devotees

So our program is to worship the
original Supreme Personality of
Godhead, Govinda. This is Krsna
consciousness movement, find
out who is the original person.
Naturally, everyone is anxious to
find out the original person of a
family, original person of a
society, original person of a
nation, original person of
humanity… Go on, searching. But
if you can find out the original
person from whom everything
has come out, that is Brahman.
Janmady asya yatah [Bhag.
1.1.1]. The Vedanta-sutra says
Brahman, the Absolute Truth, is
that from whom everything has
emanated. Very simple
description. What is God, what is
the Absolute Truth, very simple
definition—the original person.

So this Krsna consciousness
movement means to approach
the original person. The original
person is not dead, because
everything emanates from the
original person, so everything is
working very nicely. The sun is
rising, the moon is rising, the
seasons are changing, so…, there
is night, there is day, just in the
order. So the function of the
body of the original person is
going on nicely. How you can say
that God is dead? Just like in your
body, when the physician finds
by feeling your pulse that the
heart beating is going on nicely,
he does not declare that “This
man is dead.” He says, “Yes, he
is alive.” Similarly, if you are
intelligent enough, you can feel
the pulse of the universal body—
and it is going on nicely. So how
you can say God is dead? God is
never dead. It is rascal’s version
that God is dead—unintelligent
persons, persons who have no
sense how to feel something
dead or alive. One who has got
the sense to feel how a thing is
dead or alive, to understand, he’ll
never say God is dead. Therefore
in the Bhagavad-gita it is stated
that janma karma me divyam yo
janati tattvatah: “Any intelligent
person who can simply
understand how I take my birth
and how I work,” janma karma…
Now, mark this word janma,
birth; and karma, work. He never
says janma mrtyu. Mrtyu means
death. Everything that is born,
that has death also. Anything.
We haven’t got any experience
which is born does not die. This
body is born; therefore it will die.
The death is born with the birth
of my body. I am increasing my
age, number of years of my age,
means I’m dying. But in this
verse of Bhagavad-gita Krsna
says janma karma but never says
“My death.” Death cannot take
place. God is eternal. You also do
not die. That I do not know. I
simply change my body. So this is
to be understood. The Krsna
consciousness science is a great
science. It is stated…it is not a
new thing. It is stated in the
Bhagavad-gita… Most of you, you
are well acquainted with
Bhagavad-gita. And the
Bhagavad-gita, it does not accept
that after the death of this
body—not exactly death—after
the annihilation, appearance or
disappearance of this body, you
or I do not die. Na hanyate. Na
hanyate means “never dies” or
“is never destroyed,” even after
the destruction of this body. This
is the position.

Now this Krsna consciousness
movement we have to
understand through the
teachings of Lord Caitanya. He is
the… Five hundred years ago, He
appeared in Bengal, a province of
India, and He specifically
preached Krsna consciousness
movement. His mission is that
anyone who is born in India
should take this message of
Krsna consciousness and
distribute it all over the world. To
execute that order we have come
to your country. So my request is
that you try to understand this
Krsna consciousness movement
with all your knowledge,
scrutinizingly. Don’t accept it
blindly. Try to understand with
your arguments, knowledge,
logic, realization—you are human
being—and you’ll find it sublime,
sublime, undoubtedly. We have
published this book, Teachings of
Lord Caitanya, and other books
also, many books. So try to read
them. And we have got our
magazines, Back to Godhead. We
are not sentimentalists, that we
are simply dancing. The dancing
has got great value; that, if you
dance with us, you’ll feel. It is not
that some crazy fellows are
dancing. No. The most intelligent
persons, they are dancing. It is
so nicely made that even a boy
like here, he is a boy, he can take
part. Universal. Join, chant Hare
Krsna and dance, and you’ll
realize. Very simple method. You
haven’t got to understand any
high standard of philosophy or
jugglery of words, this or that.
Simple thing. What is simple
thing? God is great, everyone
knows, and we are part and
parcel of the great. So when we
are combined with the great, we
are also great. Just like your
body, a small part of your body,
a little finger or toe, that is also
the same value of the whole
body. But as soon as that small
part or big part is separated from
the body, it has no value. It has
no value. This finger, a very small
part of your body. If there is any
pain, you spend thousands of
dollars. You pay to the physician
to cure the pain thousands of
dollars, and when the physician
says that “This finger has to be,”
what is called, “dislocated or cut
off, separated, otherwise the
whole body will be infected,” so
when this finger is cut off from
your body, you don’t care for it.
No more value. Just try to
understand. A typewriting
machine, a small screw, when it
is missing, your machine is not
working nicely, you go to a
repairing shop. He charges ten
dollars. You pay immediately.
That little screw, when it is out of
that machine, it has not a value
even one farthing. Similarly, we
are all part and parcel of the
Supreme. If we work with the
Supreme, that means if we work
in Krsna consciousness or God
consciousness, that “I am part
and parcel…” Just like this finger
is working fully in consciousness
of my body. Whenever there is
little pain I can feel. Similarly, if
you dovetail yourself in Krsna
consciousness, you are living in
your normal condition, your life is
successful. And as soon as you
are separated from Krsna
consciousness, the whole trouble
is there. The whole trouble is
there. So there are many
examples we cite every day in
this class. So we have to accept
this Krsna consciousness if we at
all want to be happy and be
situated in our normal condition.
This is Krsna consciousness

So we are reading the Teachings
of Lord Caitanya. We have begun
from our last meeting, and we
shall again read it. You’ll read it?

PRABHUPADA: Read it anywhere,
that’s all. Yes.

TAMALA KRSNA: Okay. “In the
Bhagavad-gita we are informed
that the constitutional nature of
the individual entity is spirit soul.
He is not matter. Therefore as
spirit soul he is part and parcel of
the Supreme Soul, the Absolute
Truth, the Personality of
Godhead. We also learn that it is
the duty of the spirit soul to
surrender, for only then he can
be happy. The last instruction of
the Bhagavad-gita is that the
spirit soul is to surrender
completely unto the Supreme
Soul, Krsna, and in that way
realize happiness. Here also Lord
Caitanya is answering the
questions of Sanatana, repeats
the same truth, but without
giving him information about the
spirit soul which is already
described in the Gita.”

PRABHUPADA: Yes. The point is
that what is the constitutional
position of the spirit soul is very
elaborately discussed in the
Srimad Bhagavad-gita. Now the
last instruction in the Bhagavad-
gita, as Krsna says, sarva-
dharman parityajya mam ekam
saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. He
has instructed to Arjuna all kinds
of yoga system, all kinds of
religious ritualistic process,
sacrifice, and philosophical
speculation, the constitutional
position of this body,
constitutional position of the soul.
Everything He has described in
the Bhagavad-gita. And at last
He says to Arjuna, “My dear
Arjuna, because you are My very
intimate and dear friend,
therefore I say the most
confidential part of Vedic
knowledge.” And what is that?
“You simply surrender unto Me.”
That’s all. People are not inclined
to surrender; therefore he has to
learn so many things. Just like a
child, he has simply a feeling of
surrender to the parents, he’s
happy. There is no need of
learning philosophy how to live
very happily. The child is
completely dependent on the
care of parents and he’s happy.
Simple philosophy. But because
we have advanced in civilization,
in knowledge, therefore we want
to understand this simple
philosophy in so many jugglery of
words. That’s all. So if you want
to learn in jugglery of words,
then this Krsna consciousness
movement is not lacking. We
have got volumes of books of
philosophy. But if you accept this
simple process, that we have to…
God is great and we are part and
parcel; therefore my duty is to
serve and surrender unto God.
That’s all. So Caitanya
Mahaprabhu, without discussing
all the constitutional position,
philosophy, knowledge, and so
many other things, yoga system,
He immediately begins that the
constitutional position of the
living entity is to serve the
supreme whole. That is… That is
the beginning of Caitanya
Mahaprabhu’s teaching. That
means where the teachings of
Bhagavad-gita ended, Caitanya
Mahaprabhu begins from that
position. (aside:) Yes. Go on.

TAMALA KRSNA: “He begins from
the point where Krsna ended His
instruction. It is accepted by
great devotees that Lord
Caitanya is Krsna Himself, and
from the point where He ended
His instruction in the Gita, He
now begins His instruction again
to Sanatana. The Lord said to
Sanatana, ‘Your constitutional
position is that you are pure
living soul. This material body is
not the identity of your real self,
neither is your mind your real
identity, nor your intelligence, nor
is false ego the real identity of
the self. Your identity is that you
are the eternal servitor of the
Supreme Lord Krsna.’ ”

PRABHUPADA: Now here is some
important points, that in our self-
realization, those who are grossly
on the material platform, they
think that this body, “I am this
body, I am this body.” Body
means the senses; therefore my
satisfaction means the
satisfaction of the senses—sense
gratification. This is the grossest
form of self-realization. This body
is also self. The body is self, the
mind is self, and the soul is also
self. Self, the synonym. The body
and the mind and the soul, three
of them are called self. Now in
the grossest stage of our life we
think that this body is the self.
And in a subtler stage we think
that the mind and the
intelligence is the self. But
actually, self is beyond this body,
beyond this mind, beyond this
intelligence. That is the position.
Those who are grossly on the
bodily concept of self-realization,
they are materialists. And those
who are on the concept of mind
and intelligence, they are the
philosophers and poets. They are
philosophizing or giving us some
idea in poetry, but their
conception is still wrong. When
you come to the point of spiritual
platform, then it is called
devotional service. That is being
explained by Caitanya
Mahaprabhu. (aside:) Go on.

TAMALA KRSNA: “ ‘Your position
is that you are transcendental.’ ”

PRABHUPADA: Transcendental.
“You are beyond.” This is
explained in Bhagavad-gita:

indriyani parany ahur
indriyebhyah param manah
manasas tu para buddhir yo
buddheh paratas tu sah [Bg.

First of all, you realize this body.
Body means the senses. But
when you go further, we see the
mind is the center of these
sensual activities. Unless the
mind is sound, we cannot act
with our senses. So indriyebhyah
param manah. So transcendental
to the senses, mind is there, and
transcendental to the mind, there
is intelligence, and
transcendental to the
intelligence, there is soul. That
we have to understand. (aside:)
Go on.

TAMALA KRSNA: “ ‘The superior
energy of Krsna is spiritual in
constitution, and the external
energy is material. You are
between the material energy and
the spiritual energy, and
therefore your position is
marginal. In other words, you
belong to the marginal potency
of Krsna. You are simultaneously
one with and different from
Krsna. Because you are spirit,
therefore you are not different
from Krsna, but because you are
only a minute particle of Krsna,
you are therefore different from
Him.’ ”

PRABHUPADA: Now here is one
word used, marginal potency.
Marginal potency, the exact
Sanskrit word is tatastha. Just
like at the end of the land, the
sea begins. So there is a marginal
land. Just you go on the coast of
the Pacific beach, you’ll find some
land. Sometimes it is covered by
water and sometimes it is open
land. That is marginal. Similarly,
we spirit souls, although we are
constitutionally one with God, but
sometimes we are covered by
maya and sometimes we are
free. Therefore our position is
marginal. When we understand
our real position, then… The
same… Just like the same
example. Try to understand. On
the beach you’ll find a certain
portion of land which is
sometimes covered by water, and
again it is land. Similarly we are
sometimes covered by maya, the
inferior energy, and sometimes
we are free. So we have to
maintain that free state. Just like
in open land, there is no more
water. If you come little far away
from the sea water, then there is
no more water; it is all land.
Similarly, if you keep yourself
from the material consciousness,
come to the land of spiritual
consciousness, or Krsna
consciousness, then you keep
your freedom. But if you keep
yourself on the marginal position,
then sometimes you’ll be covered
by maya and sometimes you’ll be
free. So that is our position.
(aside:) Go on.

simultaneous oneness and
difference always exists in the
relationship between the living
entities and the Supreme Soul.”

simultaneously one and different,
just take the same example,
land. Somebody says, “Oh, I saw
that portion is water.” And
somebody says, “No. I saw that
some portion is land.” So
simultaneously one and different.
Simultaneously one and different.
Our position is… Because we are
spirit soul and Krsna, God, is
spirit… He is whole spirit and I
am particle of that spirit. Just like
sun, the sun globe, and the
sunshine, molecules of shining
particles, they are also sunlight.
The combination of those atomic
particles of sunshine giving us
the sunshine rays. So we are also
shining just like the particles of
the sun globe, but we are not
equal to the complete sun. The
glowing particles, molecules of
the sunshine, is not equal in
quantity with the sun globe, but
in quality it is the same. Similarly,
we living entities, we are minute
particles of that supreme spirit
soul, Krsna or God. Therefore we
are also shine. We are of the
same quality. Just like a small
particle of gold is gold. It is not
iron. Similarly, we are spirit soul;
therefore we are one. But
because I am minute… Just like
the same example. The marginal
portion being very small, it is
being sometimes covered by the
water. But the large portion of
the land, that is without any
water. Similarly, maya can cover
the minute particles of the spirit
soul, but maya cannot cover the
supreme whole. Just like the
same example, the sky, the
sunshine. The sunshine, portion
of the sunshine, is covered by
cloud. But if you go by airplane,
jet plane, above the cloud, you’ll
find the sunshine is without any
cloud. The cloud cannot cover
the whole sun. Similarly, maya
cannot cover the supreme whole.
Maya can cover the small
particles of Brahman. The theory,
the Mayavada theory that “I am
now covered by maya. As soon
as I am uncovered I become one
with the whole…” We are one
with the whole in the same way.
Just like the sunshine and the
sun globe, there is no difference
in quality. Wherever there is sun,
there is sunshine, but the small
particles, the molecules of the
sunshine, are never equal to the
complete globe sun. That is
being described by Caitanya
Mahaprabhu in this chapter.
(aside:) Go on.

TAMALA KRSNA: “The living
entity is just like a molecular part
of the sunshine, whereas Krsna is
compared to the blazing shining
sun. Lord Caitanya compared the
living entities to the blazing
sparks from the fire and the
Supreme Lord to the blazing fire
of the sun. The Lord cites in this
connection a verse from Visnu
Purana in which it is stated that
everything that is manifested
within this cosmic world is but an
energy of the Supreme Lord. For
example, as the fire emanating
from one place exhibits its
illumination and heat all around,
so the Lord, although situated in
one place in the spiritual world,
manifests His different energies

PRABHUPADA: Now, this is very
simple. Try to understand. Just
like this fire, this lamp, is located
at a certain place but the
illumination is distributed all over
this room, similarly whatever you
see, display of this cosmic
manifestation, they are display of
the energy of the Supreme Lord.
The Supreme Lord is situated in
one place. That we cite in our
Brahma-samhita: govindam adi-
purusam tam aham bhajami **.
He’s a person. Just like your
President, Mr. Johnson, he’s
sitting in his room in Washington,
but his power, his energy, is
acting all over the state. If it is
possible materially, similarly
Krsna, or God, the Supreme
Person, He is situated in His
place, abode, Vaikuntha or
kingdom of God, but His energy
is acting. Another example, the
sun. The sun, you can see sun is
located at a certain place, but
you see the sunshine is
overflooding the whole universe.
The sunshine is within your
room. So similarly, whatever you
are using, you yourself also, we
are all display of the energy of
the Supreme Lord. We are not
different from Him. But when the
cloud of maya or illusion covers
my eye, we cannot see the sun.
Similarly, when the material
concept of life covers me, we
cannot understand what is God.
We say God is dead. So we have
to uncover our eyes from this
illusion. Then you’ll see directly
God: “Here is God.” Yes. In the
Brahma-samhita it is said,

vilocanena santah sadaiva
hrdayesu vilokayanti yam
syamasundaram acintya-guna-
svarupam govindam adi-purusam
tam aham bhajami [Bs. 5.38]

That Supreme Personality of
Godhead, He is Syamasundara.
Syamasundara. Syama means
blackish but very, very beautiful.
That beautiful person, Supreme
Person, Krsna, is being observed
and seen by saintly persons
always. Premanjana-cchurita-
bhakti-vilocanena [Bs. 5.38] Why
they are seeing? Because their
eyes have been cleared by the
ointment of love of God. Just like
if your eyes are defective, you
apply some ointment, some
lotion from the physician, and
your eyesight becomes clear and
bright, you can see things very
nicely. Similarly, when your,
these material eyes will be
ointmented with love of God,
then you’ll see God, “Here is
God.” You will not say God is
dead. And that covering has to
be moved, and to move that
covering you have to take this
Krsna consciousness movement.

Thank you very much. So any
question? First of all from
audience. We invite questions, if
you have any question, doubt,
about the statements, you can
inquire. Tad viddhi pranipatena
pariprasnena sevaya [Bg. 4.34].
Everything, if you are serious to
understood, we should submit
our doubtful questions and then
understand. You see. Yes?

YOUNG MAN: Does one attain a
consciousness that is beyond
words? Or, I dare say, is there a
communication that is not the
word itself but perhaps a
vibration which is much like
sound or sound itself? Perhaps
reaching for the om. Is there a
communication, something
understood between you and
myself, myself and my brother,
others, all of us? Is there an
experience perhaps where
we’re… Does it sound like
“dong,” “aung.” Is there
something else beside the
verbal? Talk?


YOUNG MAN: Hare Krsna.


YOUNG MAN: Could you
elaborate? Could you tell me how
this can be? How it can be all the
time? Rather than to be a man,
rather than to have to talk
English alone or other languages?
How to talk that one language?

PRABHUPADA: Well, sound can
be vibrated in any language. It
doesn’t matter that Hare Krsna
can be sounded in Sanskrit only.
You can sound it in English tone
also: “Hare Krsna.” Is there any
difficulty? These boys, they are
also sounding in Hare Krsna. So
there is no difficulty. It is the
sound that matters. It doesn’t
matter who is sounding. Just like
in piano, if you touch, there is
“dung.” It doesn’t matter
whether an American is striking
or an Indian striking or a Hindu
striking or Muslim striking, the
sound is sound. Similarly, this
piano, Hare Krsna, you just touch
it and it will sound. That’s all.

YOUNG MAN (2): Do you sit and
meditate alone? What do you do
with your mind as it wanders? Do
you think of something? Do you
put it on something or do you let
it wander by itself?

PRABHUPADA: First of all let me
know what do you mean by




PRABHUPADA: Sitting alone
quiet. Is it possible? Do you think
it is possible?

YOUNG MAN (2): If you listen to
your own mind.


YOUNG MAN (2): It chatters to

PRABHUPADA: How can you sit,
silent mind? Mind is always
acting. Is there any experience
that mind is not acting when you
sit silently? When you sleep, the
mind is acting. You are dreaming.
This is the action of mind. So
when do you find that your mind
is silent?

YOUNG MAN (2): That’s what I
was trying to ask you.

PRABHUPADA: Yes. So therefore
mind is never silent. You have to
engage your mind to something.
That is meditation.


PRABHUPADA: Yes. That is
Krsna. We engage our mind to
Krsna, the beautiful Supreme
Personality of Godhead. Not only
simply engaging the mind, but
engaging the mind in action with
the senses. Because mind is
acting with our senses. Your
mind said, “Let us go to that
newly started ISKCON Society,”
so your legs carried you here. So
mind… Thinking, feeling, willing,
these are the functions of the
mind. So mind thinks, feels, and
they works. So you have to fix up
your mind not only thinking of
Krsna, but also working for
Krsna, feeling for Krsna. That is
complete meditation. That is
called samadhi. Your mind
cannot go out. You have to
engage your mind in such a way
that the mind will think of Krsna,
feel for Krsna, work for Krsna.
That is complete meditation.

YOUNG MAN (2): What do you
do with your eyes? Close your

PRABHUPADA: Yes, eyes are one
of the senses. Mind is the general
sense, and under the governor
general, there are particular
commissioners or subordinate
officers. So the eyes, the hand,
the leg, the tongue, ten senses,
they are working under the
direction of the mind. So mind is
expressed, manifested through
the senses. Therefore unless you
engage your senses in the same
way as your mind is thinking,
feeling, there is no perfection.
There will be disturbance. If your
mind is thinking of Krsna and
your eyes are seeing something
else, there will be disruption or
contradiction. Therefore under
the… You have to first of all fix
up your mind in Krsna, and then
all other senses will be engaged
in the service of Krsna. That is

sarvopadhi-vinirmuktam tat-
paratvena nirmalam hrsikena
hrsikesa-sevanam bhaktir ucyate
[Cc. Madhya 19.170]

Hrsika, hrsika means senses.
When you engage your senses in
the service of the master of the
senses… Krsna is called Hrsikesa,
or the master of the senses.
Master of the senses means, try
to understand. Just like this
hand. The hand is working very
nicely, but if the hand is
paralyzed or Krsna withdraws the
power, then your hand is useless.
You cannot restore it. Therefore
you are not master of your hand.
You are thinking falsely that “I
am master of my hand.” But
actually, you are not master. The
master is Krsna. (aside:) I’ll
answer… Therefore when your
senses will be engaged in the
service of the master of the
senses, that is called bhakti,
devotional service. Now the
senses are engaged in my
designation. I am thinking that
“This body is meant for the
satisfaction of my wife or my this
or that,” so many things, “my
country, my society.” This is
designation. But when you come
to the spiritual platform, you
understand that “I am part and
parcel of the Supreme; therefore
my activities should be to satisfy
the Supreme.” That is bhakti.
Sarvopadhi-vinirmuktam [Cc.
Madhya 19.170], being liberated
from all designation. When your
senses are purified, and when
that senses are engaged in the
service of the master of the
senses, that is called acting in
Krsna consciousness. What is
your question? So meditation,
the engagement of mind, should
be in that way. Then it will be
perfect. Otherwise, the mind is
so flickering and changing that if
you don’t fix up at a certain
point… Fix up means… The mind
is want to do something because
the symptom of mind is thinking,
feeling and willing. So you have
to train your mind in such a way
that you will think of Krsna, you’ll
feel for Krsna, you’ll work for
Krsna. Then it is samadhi. That is
perfect meditation.


PRABHUPADA: This is the
training. You just engage yourself
in activities of Krsna
consciousness. This is practical.
Just like chanting, the boy of ten
years old, he’s also engaged. His
mind is concentrated on the
vibration Hare Krsna. His other
senses, legs or hand, they’re
working, dancing. So in this way
we have to practice our mind,
our senses always engaged in
Krsna consciousness. That will
make you perfect. And that is
possible by everyone. You don’t
require to sit down at a place to
artificially meditate upon
something. As soon as you chant
Hare Krsna, immediately your
mind is diverted, immediately you
remember Krsna, instruction of
Krsna, work of Krsna, everything.
That requires practice.

YOUNG MAN (2): Since you are a
ray of the sun, so to speak…


YOUNG MAN (2): Could you think
of yourself? And when you think,
you are thinking of Krsna?

PRABHUPADA: Why not? I am
individual… Although I am small,
but I am individual. I have got all
the power of thinking, feeling,
willing. We are doing that. We
are individual. You have come
here by your individual will.
Nobody has forced you. If you
like, you can go. Somebody
comes here, somebody never
comes, somebody comes daily.
Why? Even you are small, you
have got individuality. Even in
this conditioned state, you are so
free, so much free. And when
you are unconditioned, purely
spirit, you do not know how
much freedom you have got. It
doesn’t matter you are small, but
you are a spiritual spark. Don’t
you see that a small spiritual
spark which no physician, no
medical science has still
discovered, where is the soul, but
the soul is there. That is a fact.
As soon as the soul is gone from
this body, it is useless. Find out
what is that important particle.
That is not possible, because it is
so small that your, with these
material eyes or microscope or
any scope you cannot find out.
Therefore they say there is no
soul. But they cannot explain
what is gone. Even that small
particle of spiritual soul is so
powerful that as long as it is
within this body, it keeps it fresh,
nice, beautiful. And as soon as it
is gone, immediately it becomes
to decompose. Just see. Just like
a drug, injection. A little, one
grain, it keeps fit. It is something
like that, it is so powerful. You do
not know what is the power of
that soul. That you have to learn.
Then that is self-realization. This
meditation process, sitting in a
silent place, is recommended in
the grossest stage of bodily
concept of life. Let one thing,
meditate, “Am I this body?” then
make analysis. You’ll see, “No. I
am not this body. I am different
from this body.” Then further
meditation: “If I am not this
body, then the bodily actions,
how it is being done?” It is being
done for that presence of that
small particle, myself. How the
body is growing? Because on
account of presence. Just like this
boy, this boy has got a small
stature of body. Now, this boy
will grow a very stout and strong
body in his young age, as at the
age of twenty-four years. Now,
this body will go, another body
will come. How it is being
possible? On account of presence
of the small particle of the soul.
But if that particle of the soul is
taken away or gone away, this
body no more will increase or
change. These are the subject
matter of meditation. But when
you come to the point of
understanding that “I am not this
body. I am spirit soul,” then the
next stage will be “What is the
function of the soul?” That
function of soul is Krsna
consciousness, working in Krsna
consciousness. So in the present
age one has to take directly to
the function of the soul; then
other things will automatically
come. It is not possible at the
present moment that you can go
to a secluded place and
peacefully sit there and meditate
upon… It is not possible in this
age. It is impossible. If you try
artificially, it will be failure.
Therefore you have to take this

harer nama harer nama harer
nama eva kevalam kalau nasty
eva nasty eva nasty eva gatir
anyatha [Adi 17.21]

In this age of Kali, there is no
other alternative for self-
realization than this chanting
Hare Krsna. That is the practical,
real fact.

MADHUDVISA: Is there any way
for a Christian to, without the
help of a spiritual master, to
reach the spiritual sky through
believing in the words of Jesus
Christ and trying to follow his


TAMALA KRSNA: Can a Christian
in this age, without a spiritual
master, but by reading the Bible
and following Jesus’s words,
reach the…

PRABHUPADA: When you read
Bible, you follow spiritual master.
How can you say without? As
soon as you read Bible, that
means you are following the
instruction of Lord Jesus Christ,
that means you are following
spiritual master. So where is the
opportunity of being without
spiritual master?

MADHUDVISA: I was referring to
a living spiritual master.

PRABHUPADA: Spiritual master is
not the question of… Spiritual
master is eternal. Spiritual master
is eternal. So your question is
without spiritual master. Without
spiritual master you cannot be, at
any stage of your life. You may
accept this spiritual master or
that spiritual master. That is a
different thing. But you have to
accept. As you say that “by
reading Bible,” when you read
Bible that means you are
following the spiritual master
represented by some priest or
some clergyman in the line of
Lord Jesus Christ. So any case,
you have to follow a spiritual
master. There cannot be the
question without spiritual master.
Is that clear?

MADHUDVISA: I mean like we
couldn’t understand the
teachings of the Bhagavad-gita
without your help, without your

PRABHUPADA: Similarly, you
have to understand Bible with
the help of the priest in the

MADHUDVISA: Yes. But is he
receiving a good interpretation
from his disciplic succession or
his bishop? Because there seems
to be some kind of a discrepancy
in the interpretation of the Bible.
There’s many different sects of
Christianity that interpret the
Bible in different ways.

PRABHUPADA: Of course, there
cannot be any interpretation in
the Bible. Then there is no
authority of Bible. If you interpret
something… Just like “Call a
spade a spade.” So if you call
something else, that is a different
thing. He’s not spiritual master.
Just like this is watch. Everybody
has called it watch, and if I call it
spectacle, then what is the value
of my being spiritual master? I’m
misleading. (laughter) It is
watch, that I must say. So when
there is misinterpretation, he’s
not a bona fide spiritual master.
He’s not spiritual master, what is
called a bona fide. If I want to
teach you how to see this watch,
I can say that “This is called
watch and this is called hand and
this is called time indication; this
is, this called…,” so that is nice.
And if I say that “Everybody says
it is watch. I say it is spectacle,”
then what kind of a spiritual
master I am? Reject him
immediately. That intelligence
you must have, who is a pseudo
spiritual master or real spiritual
master. Otherwise you’ll be
cheated. And that is being done.
Everyone is interpreting in his
own way. The Bhagavad-gita,
there are thousands of editions,
and they have tried to interpret
in their own way, all nonsense.
They should be all thrown away.
Simply you have to read
Bhagavad-gita as it is. Then you’ll
understand. There is no question
of interpretation. Then the
authority is gone. As soon as you
interpret, then there is no
authority. Lawbook. Do you
mean to say in the court if you
say before the judge, “My dear
lord, I interpret this passage in
this way,” will it be accepted?
The judge will at once say, “Who
are you to interpret? You have no
right.” Then what is the authority
of this lawbook if everyone
comes, “I interpret in this way”?
And interpretation when
required? When a thing is not
understood. If I say, “It is
watch,” and everyone
understands that “This is watch,
yes,” then where is the
opportunity of interpreting that
this is spectacle? If anyone can
understand the clear passage…
Just like in the Bible, “God said,
‘Let there be creation,’ and there
was creation.” Where is the
question of interpretation? Yes,
God created. You cannot create.
Where is the opportunity of
interpretation? So unnecessary
interpretation is not required and
that is not bona fide, and those
who are interpreting
unnecessarily, they should be
rejected immediately.
Immediately, without any
consideration. God said, “Let
there be creation.” So there was
creation. Simple thing. Where is
the question of interpretation?
What can be the interpretation
here? Suggest that this can be
interpretation. Am I right? In the
beginning of the Bible it is said
like that? “God said, ‘Let there be
creation,’ and there was creation.
So what is your interpretation?
Tell me what is your
interpretation. Is there any
possibility of interpretation? Can
any one of you suggest? Then
where is the opportunity of
interpretation? One can explain.
That is different thing, but the
fact that God created, that will
remain. That you cannot change.
Now, how that creative process
took place, that is explained in
Bhagavatam: First of all, there
was sky, then there was sound,
then there was this, that. This is
the process of creation, that is
another thing. But the fact, the
primary fact that God created,
that will remain at any
circumstances. Not the rascal
scientist says, “Oh, there was a
chunk and it is split up, and there
was these planets. Perhaps this
and likely this,” all this nonsense.
They’ll simply interpret, “likely,”
“perhaps.” That is not science—
“likely,” “perhaps.” Why perhaps?
Here is clear statement, “God
created.” That’s all. Finish. Yes.

MAHAPURUSA: Prabhupada, is
there any contradiction, because
Lord Jesus Christ and Lord
Caitanya both appeared in the
Kali-yuga and Lord Jesus Christ
said that “The only way to God is
through me. Just believe in me or
surrender to me,” and Lord
Caitanya taught that hari-nama is
the only means of spiritual
realization in this age?

PRABHUPADA: So where do you
find the difference? If Lord Jesus
Christ says, “Through me,” that
means he’s representative of
God, and hari-nama is God. So
either through the representative
of God or God, the same thing.
God and God’s representative,
there is no difference. Even in
these ordinary dealings, if I send
some representative, if he signs
something on my behalf, I have
to accept that, because he is my
representative. Similarly, God has
to be approached through God or
through His representative. The
same thing. Only the difference
may be of understanding.
Because Lord Jesus Christ spoke
to a society that was not very
much advanced. You can
understand that such a great
personality, God conscious
person, was crucified. Just see
the condition of the society. In
other words, they were low-
grade society. So they were not
able to understand the whole
philosophy of God. That is
sufficient. “God created. Just
take it.” They were not intelligent
to understand how the creation
took place. Had they been
intelligent, they would not have
crucified such a great personality
like Jesus Christ. So we have to
understand what is the condition
of the society. Just like in the
Koran it is said by Muhammad
that “From this day you have no
sex intercourse with your
mother.” Just find out the
condition of the society. So we
have to take account of the time,
circumstances, society, and then
preaching. So to society like that
it is not possible to understand
the high philosophical things as it
is stated in the Bhagavad-gita.
But the primary fact, the
authority is God, that is accepted
both in Bible and Bhagavad-gita.
Bible begins, “God is the supreme
authority,” and Bhagavad-gita
concludes, “You surrender.”
Where is the difference? Simply
the description is according to
the time, society, and place and
people. That’s all. They are not
Arjuna. You see? So the things to
be understood by Arjuna is not
possible by the persons who had
crucified Lord Jesus Christ. You
have to study in that light. The
same thing. A dictionary, a
pocket dictionary, child’s
dictionary, and the dictionary,
international dictionary, both of
them dictionary, but the value is
different. That dictionary is
meant for a class of children, and
that dictionary is meant for high
scholars. But none of them you
can say it is not dictionary. That
you cannot say. Both of them are
dictionaries. So we have to take
consideration of the time, place,
persons, everything. Just like
Lord Buddha, he simply said that
“Stop this nonsense animal
killing.” That was his
propaganda. They were so low-
grade people, simply taking
pleasure in animal killing. So in
order to elevate them, Lord
Buddha wanted to stop this
nonsense: “Please stop killing.”
So in every time a different
representative of God or God
comes to teach people at
different circumstances. So
according to the circumstances
there may be some difference in
explanation, but the primary
factor remains the same. Lord
Buddha said, “All right, there is
no God, but you surrender to
me.” Then where is the
difference? That means one has
to accept the authority of God
either this way or that way.

CHILD: Um, when Lord Buddha
was here, did he sit down and


CHILD: Well, I thought that in
this age you can’t meditate, but
Lord Buddha, who was God’s
son, he meditated.


CHILD: But that wasn’t the age
of Kali?


CHILD: It was?


CHILD: Then how can you

PRABHUPADA: Very good (much
laughter). Lord Buddha said,
“Meditate,” but the followers of
the Lord Buddha could not. They
failed. We are giving new light,
that “Meditation will fail. You take
this.” Is that clear? Yes. If
somebody has said you
something, and if you are failure,
then I say, “You don’t do this.
Take this. It will be nice.” Just
like you are a child, you cannot
meditate, but you can dance and
chant Hare Krsna. Lord Buddha
knew that they cannot meditate.
You are a very intelligent boy.
But in order to stop their
nonsense, he simply said, “Sit
down. Meditate.” That’s all.

All right. Chant Hare Krsna.
Chant. (kirtana)